A Loki & IW4 theory (not mine)!
Dec. 7th, 2018 09:49 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
papersarkanyAvengers deaths: Loki KNEW he was going to die and THIS is why he did it from the Express, by Stefan Kyriazis.
This is an appealing theory... for a fanfic. In the actual movies, it doesn't quite fit. Moreover, I honestly don't think the scriptwriters, directors and producers should be given this much credit.
I still like the idea though!
AVENGERS INFINITY WAR showed Loki die and it was not an illusion. Loki wanted Thanos to kill him so he could do this in Avengers 4.
Impetuous, irresponsible, inconsiderate? Yes. Selfish? Absolutely. Self-sacrificing? Never.
Loki is many things but the one thing he has never been is careless with his own life.
He must have known it would be impossible to stab Thanos. That whole scene feels so staged, the dialogue so carefully chosen that it is clearly not just the Trickster God's flair for the dramatic at work.
Loki knew what he was doing, he even looked across at Thor to make sure his brother was registering every word. Loki wanted Thanos to kill him because he already had a plan in place.
An incredible new argument examines Loki's last words and then explains exactly what his plan is.
Loki says: "Almighty Thanos, I, Loki, Prince of Asgard... (turns his head towards Thor), Odinson... (looks Thor in the eye, then turns back to Thanos), rightful King of Jotunheim, God of Mischief, do hereby pledge to you, my undying fidelity."
Thanos replies: "Undying? You should choose your words more carefully."
Except, Loki always chooses his words extremely carefully.
Redditor GregoryBassore says: "Loki's one of those guys who works out plans to always be able to come out ahead in some way."
And if he thinks there is a chance he might lose he already has a back-up plan.
This new theory argues that Loki needs to get to either Valhalla or Hel. Dying honourably in battle in Norse mythology guarantees a warrior eternal afterlife in Valhalla. This would give Loki access to any antire army of undead warriors waiting for Ragnarok. Thor:Ragnarok was the end of Asgard but didn't actually open teh gates for all the eternal warriors to sweep in for one last battle.
But Loki is a god and it is just as likely he would go to Hel. Whch is where his father Odin and potentially his sister Hela would be.
Hela actress Cate Blanchet was spotted last year in the area where Avengers 4 scenes with Thor, Rocket and Valkyrie were being filmed at Durham Cathedral.
Is Loki trying to get to Odin to recruit his power and wisdom for the final battle. Is he trying to get to Hela, goddess of Death, so she can bring him back to life and potentially raise an army of the dead?
Now that Thor has Stormbreaker, he can also control the Bifrost which can open the way to Hel or even Valhalla to bring back an army, or simply his brother.
Surely, fans have not seen the last of Loki?
And continued on reddit in r/FanTheories... [Spoilers] Infinity War - Loki's Motivations by reddit user GreggoryBasore.
I also posted this in /r/Marvel and figured you guys over here would dig it too.
In the last 3 months, a lot of people have been offering theories about Loki not really having died, and what he might actually be up to after faking his death.
First off, I have to tell all you "Loki must be alive" folks that you're wrong. Not just for the oft stated reasons that it would be bad writing, or that Thanos's line about "No resurrections this time" is the writer's clue to the audience that "we really mean it, he's totally for real dead now."
Every "Loki Lives" theory has a fundamental flaw. They all rely on the idea that Loki was casting an illusion spell to trick Thanos, but neglect a crucial aspect of Loki's illusion. They have no weight or mass. They're just light. We've seen this time and again, when Loki creates an illusory doppleganger and people pass through it.
We even see an important example of this in Ragnarok. When Thor tosses his hammer into the distance and grabs the back of Loki's head, he's not just putting pressure on his brother to drop the ruse. He's giving himself a way to be sure that he's not making a mistake. He's insuring that Loki hasn't moved out of the way and left an illusion in place and also making sure he isn't wrong in his suspicions, because for all he knows, Odin might have gone senile or something. Thor would be able to feel the tactile difference between his father's head and that of his brother.
So if Loki had been casting an illusion in an attempt to trick Thanos, the ruse would have fallen apart the moment the Mad Titan tried to grab his neck1.
One of the big reasons that people can't accept Loki being dead is likely "Why would he do something so stupid like try to shank Thanos. Loki's smarter than that!" Well, yeah, Loki's smart enough to know that his chances of killing Thanos were virtually nil. But that wasn't his primary goal.
Loki intended to die!
Let's recall that Loki's one of those guys who works out plans to always be able to come out ahead in some way. In Avengers, he was able to make sure that he'd either end up as the ruler of earth, or that he'd be returned to Asgard and have another shot at stealing the throne.
By attempting to stab the Mad Titan in the neck, Loki is making sure that he'll either kill Thanos, or end up dead. Now, you might be asking yourself "Why would Loki want to die?" It's all in what he says.
Many people have previously pointed out the importance of Loki telling his brother that, "The Sun will shine on us again" as a hint to go to Nidavallir2 and get a new weapon made. So let's take a look at what Loki says right before he dies.
"Almighty Thanos, I, Loki, Prince of Asgard..."
-Pauses dramatically, turns his head towards Thor-
"... Odinson..."
-Looks Thor in the eye, then turns back to Thanos-
"... Rightful King of Jotunheim, God of Mischief, do hereby pledge to you, my undying fidelity."
Thanos's response is pricelessly ironic.
"Undying? You should choose your words more carefully."
Loki chose his words extremely carefully.
While it hasn't been explicitly stated in the movies, it is established in both the Marvel comics and the Norse mythology they're based on, that death is not the end of existence for Asgardians. One of the Nine Realms is Helheim-1, where the dead go.
Who might Loki be looking for in The Land of the Dead? Why, his father of course! Odin's wisdom might yet yield a solution (or maybe 12% of a solution) for defeating Thanos. Loki knows that he doesn't stand a chance against The Mad Titan. Thanos is stronger and smarter than him, and Loki's under no delusions otherwise.
Loki's making a desperate gambit to enter the realm of the dead and figure out a way to help save the universe. Maybe he can find his father. Perhaps he can also find his sister (that is, if Hela's actually dead, which isn't answered in Ragnarok3) and convince her to help find a way for the dead to rise up against Thanos.
Even Loki's statement to Thanos isn't what it seems. Note that Loki doesn't say "I offer you my undying loyalty." He pledges "my undying fidelity."
Fidelity is defined as; Faithfulness to a person, cause, or belief, demonstrated by continuing loyalty and support.
Loki isn't offering Thanos loyalty to his cause of wiping out half the universe. Loki is promising to do everything that he can to defend his people.
No, Loki isn't still alive, but there is a way he can show up in Avengers 4 (which I'm predicting will be called Avengers: Disassembled by the way4) and his death will still have weight and meaning.
Foot Notes:
1 For all you guys saying "Banner isn't turning into Hulk because he's really Loki in disguise!" um... no.
A) Making himself look like the Hulk would not give him Hulk's Strength-2.
B) How would Loki be able to keep the illusion going after he's gone?
C) Also, Why the hell would he fake an argument with Hulk while inside the Hulk Buster armor, when there's no one to see him?
2 By the way, I'd like to think that Thor getting burnt up by that star blasted away any infection that might have come from Rocket's artificial eye.
3 When Hela's walking through Odin's treasure room in Ragnarok and commenting on the items within, she looks at the Cask of Ancient Winters and says "That's not bad."-3 So there's a good chance she used it against Sutr. The explosion of Asgard getting destroyed is likely the result of a giant fire demon being blasted with a super powerful ice beam. We've already seen that Asgardians can survive (at least for a little while) in outer space, so Hela's likely still alive somewhere.
4 Kevin Feige stated last year that the title for the fourth Avengers movie was being withheld because it was kind of a spoiler. Earlier this year, ahead of the release of Infinity War, he stated that people were blowing that comment out of proportion and he is now worried that when the title is announced it's going to be a disappointment.
The only two titles I can think of would be "kind of a spoiler" but not a great big shocker, are Avengers: Infinity Gauntlet because the title might have been seen as a hint that Thanos would get all the gems by the end of the movie, or Avengers: Disassembled because by the end of the movie, the team has been taken apart and decimated.
I'm guessing Disassembled over Infinity Gauntlet, because it's a title that would make it more clear that the team loses The Infinity War.
Also, if we don't get to hear Cap shout AVENGERS ASSEMBLE! By the end of the 4th movie I am going to be severely pissed off.
* * * *
Corrections
-1. /u/business_snek Pointed out that Norse Mythology has those who die in battle going to Valhalla, not Helheim. Good point, looks like I mixed up realms of the dead.
-2. Multiple people have pointed out Thor's story about Loki turning into a snake and biting him when they were younger. So it is possible that Loki's shape shifting powers could have given him strength similar to the Hulk, but he still wouldn't have been able to maintain that illusion.
-3. It's been pointed out a few times that I got Hela's assessment of The Cask of Ancient Winters mixed up with her line about the Tesseract. The point still stands though, that the Cask is shown and referred to, as a subtle way to foreshadow Hela turning up alive later down the line.
* * * *
Clarifications
People keep bringing up examples of Loki touching things when he's disguising himself or altering his appearance, (such as getting stabbed by Kurse, or holding Odin's Spear while impersonating his father), but these aren't examples of decoys/dopplegangers. Loki's warping the light around himself to deceive others. Everytime Loki creates a magic duplicate of himself, while being in another spot, that duplicate is shown to be hollow.
Seriously though, can anyone cite me a scene where Loki makes a magical doppleganger or any kind of illusion that has weight and mass?
TL;DR Loki tried to do a "sexy and mischievous knife dance" with Thanos, which would have culminated in the two of them making some bad ass sammiches, but didn't properly explain his motivations.
This is an appealing theory... for a fanfic. In the actual movies, it doesn't quite fit. Moreover, I honestly don't think the scriptwriters, directors and producers should be given this much credit.
I still like the idea though!
AVENGERS INFINITY WAR showed Loki die and it was not an illusion. Loki wanted Thanos to kill him so he could do this in Avengers 4.
Impetuous, irresponsible, inconsiderate? Yes. Selfish? Absolutely. Self-sacrificing? Never.
Loki is many things but the one thing he has never been is careless with his own life.
He must have known it would be impossible to stab Thanos. That whole scene feels so staged, the dialogue so carefully chosen that it is clearly not just the Trickster God's flair for the dramatic at work.
Loki knew what he was doing, he even looked across at Thor to make sure his brother was registering every word. Loki wanted Thanos to kill him because he already had a plan in place.
An incredible new argument examines Loki's last words and then explains exactly what his plan is.
Loki says: "Almighty Thanos, I, Loki, Prince of Asgard... (turns his head towards Thor), Odinson... (looks Thor in the eye, then turns back to Thanos), rightful King of Jotunheim, God of Mischief, do hereby pledge to you, my undying fidelity."
Thanos replies: "Undying? You should choose your words more carefully."
Except, Loki always chooses his words extremely carefully.
Redditor GregoryBassore says: "Loki's one of those guys who works out plans to always be able to come out ahead in some way."
And if he thinks there is a chance he might lose he already has a back-up plan.
This new theory argues that Loki needs to get to either Valhalla or Hel. Dying honourably in battle in Norse mythology guarantees a warrior eternal afterlife in Valhalla. This would give Loki access to any antire army of undead warriors waiting for Ragnarok. Thor:Ragnarok was the end of Asgard but didn't actually open teh gates for all the eternal warriors to sweep in for one last battle.
But Loki is a god and it is just as likely he would go to Hel. Whch is where his father Odin and potentially his sister Hela would be.
Hela actress Cate Blanchet was spotted last year in the area where Avengers 4 scenes with Thor, Rocket and Valkyrie were being filmed at Durham Cathedral.
Is Loki trying to get to Odin to recruit his power and wisdom for the final battle. Is he trying to get to Hela, goddess of Death, so she can bring him back to life and potentially raise an army of the dead?
Now that Thor has Stormbreaker, he can also control the Bifrost which can open the way to Hel or even Valhalla to bring back an army, or simply his brother.
Surely, fans have not seen the last of Loki?
And continued on reddit in r/FanTheories... [Spoilers] Infinity War - Loki's Motivations by reddit user GreggoryBasore.
I also posted this in /r/Marvel and figured you guys over here would dig it too.
In the last 3 months, a lot of people have been offering theories about Loki not really having died, and what he might actually be up to after faking his death.
First off, I have to tell all you "Loki must be alive" folks that you're wrong. Not just for the oft stated reasons that it would be bad writing, or that Thanos's line about "No resurrections this time" is the writer's clue to the audience that "we really mean it, he's totally for real dead now."
Every "Loki Lives" theory has a fundamental flaw. They all rely on the idea that Loki was casting an illusion spell to trick Thanos, but neglect a crucial aspect of Loki's illusion. They have no weight or mass. They're just light. We've seen this time and again, when Loki creates an illusory doppleganger and people pass through it.
We even see an important example of this in Ragnarok. When Thor tosses his hammer into the distance and grabs the back of Loki's head, he's not just putting pressure on his brother to drop the ruse. He's giving himself a way to be sure that he's not making a mistake. He's insuring that Loki hasn't moved out of the way and left an illusion in place and also making sure he isn't wrong in his suspicions, because for all he knows, Odin might have gone senile or something. Thor would be able to feel the tactile difference between his father's head and that of his brother.
So if Loki had been casting an illusion in an attempt to trick Thanos, the ruse would have fallen apart the moment the Mad Titan tried to grab his neck1.
One of the big reasons that people can't accept Loki being dead is likely "Why would he do something so stupid like try to shank Thanos. Loki's smarter than that!" Well, yeah, Loki's smart enough to know that his chances of killing Thanos were virtually nil. But that wasn't his primary goal.
Loki intended to die!
Let's recall that Loki's one of those guys who works out plans to always be able to come out ahead in some way. In Avengers, he was able to make sure that he'd either end up as the ruler of earth, or that he'd be returned to Asgard and have another shot at stealing the throne.
By attempting to stab the Mad Titan in the neck, Loki is making sure that he'll either kill Thanos, or end up dead. Now, you might be asking yourself "Why would Loki want to die?" It's all in what he says.
Many people have previously pointed out the importance of Loki telling his brother that, "The Sun will shine on us again" as a hint to go to Nidavallir2 and get a new weapon made. So let's take a look at what Loki says right before he dies.
"Almighty Thanos, I, Loki, Prince of Asgard..."
-Pauses dramatically, turns his head towards Thor-
"... Odinson..."
-Looks Thor in the eye, then turns back to Thanos-
"... Rightful King of Jotunheim, God of Mischief, do hereby pledge to you, my undying fidelity."
Thanos's response is pricelessly ironic.
"Undying? You should choose your words more carefully."
Loki chose his words extremely carefully.
While it hasn't been explicitly stated in the movies, it is established in both the Marvel comics and the Norse mythology they're based on, that death is not the end of existence for Asgardians. One of the Nine Realms is Helheim-1, where the dead go.
Who might Loki be looking for in The Land of the Dead? Why, his father of course! Odin's wisdom might yet yield a solution (or maybe 12% of a solution) for defeating Thanos. Loki knows that he doesn't stand a chance against The Mad Titan. Thanos is stronger and smarter than him, and Loki's under no delusions otherwise.
Loki's making a desperate gambit to enter the realm of the dead and figure out a way to help save the universe. Maybe he can find his father. Perhaps he can also find his sister (that is, if Hela's actually dead, which isn't answered in Ragnarok3) and convince her to help find a way for the dead to rise up against Thanos.
Even Loki's statement to Thanos isn't what it seems. Note that Loki doesn't say "I offer you my undying loyalty." He pledges "my undying fidelity."
Fidelity is defined as; Faithfulness to a person, cause, or belief, demonstrated by continuing loyalty and support.
Loki isn't offering Thanos loyalty to his cause of wiping out half the universe. Loki is promising to do everything that he can to defend his people.
No, Loki isn't still alive, but there is a way he can show up in Avengers 4 (which I'm predicting will be called Avengers: Disassembled by the way4) and his death will still have weight and meaning.
Foot Notes:
1 For all you guys saying "Banner isn't turning into Hulk because he's really Loki in disguise!" um... no.
A) Making himself look like the Hulk would not give him Hulk's Strength-2.
B) How would Loki be able to keep the illusion going after he's gone?
C) Also, Why the hell would he fake an argument with Hulk while inside the Hulk Buster armor, when there's no one to see him?
2 By the way, I'd like to think that Thor getting burnt up by that star blasted away any infection that might have come from Rocket's artificial eye.
3 When Hela's walking through Odin's treasure room in Ragnarok and commenting on the items within, she looks at the Cask of Ancient Winters and says "That's not bad."-3 So there's a good chance she used it against Sutr. The explosion of Asgard getting destroyed is likely the result of a giant fire demon being blasted with a super powerful ice beam. We've already seen that Asgardians can survive (at least for a little while) in outer space, so Hela's likely still alive somewhere.
4 Kevin Feige stated last year that the title for the fourth Avengers movie was being withheld because it was kind of a spoiler. Earlier this year, ahead of the release of Infinity War, he stated that people were blowing that comment out of proportion and he is now worried that when the title is announced it's going to be a disappointment.
The only two titles I can think of would be "kind of a spoiler" but not a great big shocker, are Avengers: Infinity Gauntlet because the title might have been seen as a hint that Thanos would get all the gems by the end of the movie, or Avengers: Disassembled because by the end of the movie, the team has been taken apart and decimated.
I'm guessing Disassembled over Infinity Gauntlet, because it's a title that would make it more clear that the team loses The Infinity War.
Also, if we don't get to hear Cap shout AVENGERS ASSEMBLE! By the end of the 4th movie I am going to be severely pissed off.
* * * *
Corrections
-1. /u/business_snek Pointed out that Norse Mythology has those who die in battle going to Valhalla, not Helheim. Good point, looks like I mixed up realms of the dead.
-2. Multiple people have pointed out Thor's story about Loki turning into a snake and biting him when they were younger. So it is possible that Loki's shape shifting powers could have given him strength similar to the Hulk, but he still wouldn't have been able to maintain that illusion.
-3. It's been pointed out a few times that I got Hela's assessment of The Cask of Ancient Winters mixed up with her line about the Tesseract. The point still stands though, that the Cask is shown and referred to, as a subtle way to foreshadow Hela turning up alive later down the line.
* * * *
Clarifications
People keep bringing up examples of Loki touching things when he's disguising himself or altering his appearance, (such as getting stabbed by Kurse, or holding Odin's Spear while impersonating his father), but these aren't examples of decoys/dopplegangers. Loki's warping the light around himself to deceive others. Everytime Loki creates a magic duplicate of himself, while being in another spot, that duplicate is shown to be hollow.
Seriously though, can anyone cite me a scene where Loki makes a magical doppleganger or any kind of illusion that has weight and mass?
TL;DR Loki tried to do a "sexy and mischievous knife dance" with Thanos, which would have culminated in the two of them making some bad ass sammiches, but didn't properly explain his motivations.
